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Rigsby



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:55 pm    Post subject: 90s NA authors slating the classic series - vested interest? Reply with quote

Remember all the attacks on the classic series that seemed to come like an avalanche in the early nineties, and more often than not New Adventures writers or their friends? Paul Cornell slagging off Terror of The Autons being the most famous example. Others in fanzines going on how Hartnell was a ham and Pertwee was boring. Thing is, I've just realised something that seems so bloody obvious now, wasn't there a lot of vested interest involved?

The arrogance that seemed to reek from these NA writers, way beyond their reality ie writers of TV spin-off fiction (the lowest of the literary low) was something to behold. That had to be justified by assuming they'd superseded the old show. It's a motivation for the Pertwee/Hartnell/black and white is boring backlash that I've rarely seen talked about. It also explains why McCoy was overly-eulogised by them in comparison, that's the Doctor they were contracted to write, so better bum him up eh?

And a lot of these exact same sorry ex-NA lot nowadays, hypocritically calling out people for daring to slag off the genius of New Who and decrying Lawrence Miles for indulging in exactly the kind of mockery and disrespect of production teams they were dishing out themselves a couple of decades before.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terror of the Autons is rubbish and Pertwee is boring? Haha good one.. oh wait he's being serious?

In some ways it wouldn't bother me so much if he wasn't a writer. He's got his own tastes and opinions, right? But when he's a shit writer and slags off writers who are infinitely better than him it makes me wonder just what the fuck does he take inspiration or learn from? ESPECIALLY IF HE'S WRITING DOCTOR WHO, FOR FUCKS SAKE!!!

He really is the the lowest of the literary low. Lol.

This is the problem with Nu-Who. They employ super fans rather than competent writers.


Last edited by xM002x on Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:48 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Vector-Victor



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone actually have any examples of NA Doctors doing down
the classic series in the early 90s? I didn't have access to any
DW fanzines during this time, so I don't know about stuff like Cornell
claiming Pertwee was a "Tory".
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Rigsby



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vector-Victor wrote:
Does anyone actually have any examples of NA Doctors doing down
the classic series in the early 90s? I didn't have access to any
DW fanzines during this time, so I don't know about stuff like Cornell
claiming Pertwee was a "Tory".

Get a copy of License Revoked, edited by Cornell. Which is full of Cornell's mates talking about the classic series like its something they just stood in.
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Vector-Victor



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rigsby wrote:
Vector-Victor wrote:
Does anyone actually have any examples of NA Doctors doing down
the classic series in the early 90s? I didn't have access to any
DW fanzines during this time, so I don't know about stuff like Cornell
claiming Pertwee was a "Tory".

Get a copy of License Revoked, edited by Cornell. Which is full of Cornell's mates talking about the classic series like its something they just stood in.


I did see that book years ago but didn't buy it (and am I sorry now!) Sad
-didn't it have a long essay criticising the Master by Daniel somebody?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Licence Denied:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Licence-Denied-Rumblings-Doctor-Underground/dp/075350104X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1279656599&sr=1-1-spell

I think Licence Revoked was what they were going to call the second Dalton Bond film until someone decided that Americans would interpret that as meaning he'd lost his driving licence.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The old rec.arts.drwho newsgroup has records going back to the early 90's. The search facility is limited though. Will try and find a better search engine.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.drwho

Here's Paul Cornell's review of 'Terror of the Autons':

Quote:
Terror of the Autons review by Paul Cornell, as originally printed in
DWB 112, April 1993.

as requested by a few people in the Cornell Pisses on RADW (again)
thread.

- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
>THE FIRST THING anybody thinks of encountering season eight,
>concerning Delgado's master, concerning Terror of the Autons is a
>circus.

>Rossini's Circus. And a circus was a good place to start the season
>for two reasons, because the big top could contain many of Robert
>Holmes' obsessions, and because the big top is a place to demonstrate
>tricks. The trick was that Holmes' obsessions weren't going to be
>entertained at all. And neither were we.

>We remember a lot of the Perwee era as being well written because
>Dicks' and Hulke's books of the time are so great. Malcolm simply
>increases the characterization and depth. Terrance edits the
>dialogue, the details, and even the plots to make sweeping positive
>changes. The book of Terror is miles better than the video.

>Let's examine Holmesian touches in Terror.

>Firstly, little lines like "Ham fisted bun vendor!" shine through,
>although they do play a part in characterizing the Pertwee Doctor as
>dislikable. From Tom Baker's mouth, a Holmes put down is countered by
>a villain, a situation, or an equally capable assistant to make the
>Doctor sound charmingly petulant. From Pertwee's mouth, a Holmes put
>down smacks the other characters round the face, none of them having
>the wit to retaliate. Only Nicholas Courtney's impregnable Brigadier
>survives the onslaught, and that's because he's one of only two good
>actors in the Pertwee team. I`ll get to the other one in a minute.

>Holmsian humour appears in Terror too, though if you blink you'll miss
>it. Firstly, there's the 'clubbish' aspect, Pertwee displays
>worryinglyknowledge of (token zero-plot material civil servant)
>Brownrose's boss, Tubby Rowlands. His reply to Rossini' s cliche that
>gentlemen don't talk about money is the absolutely Holmsian "gentlemen
>never talk about anything else". It's a Curious phrase, a Beau Brummel
>bon mot that marks Pertwee out as one of the bourgeoisie, a man at
>home with brandy and cigars. Indeed, the way the Master holds that
>weapon of his is exactly like a cigar. Cast Orson Welles and we'd have
>got to Revenge of the Rotarians by season ten. This clubby trait isn't
>anything to do with characterization, it's the standard Holmes motif
>for absolutely everything. It extends through Avon's inexplicable cry
>of "you dummy" in Gambit, to the hugely uncharacteristic Davison
>dialogue in The Caves of Androzani, to the selfish and bitter piece
>Holmes wrote about himself for the Peter Haining book.

>One can imagine Holmes and Hitchcock getting on, chuckling over death
>and pornography. Not that makes him a bad writer. Indeed his honesty
>and character mark him out from some of the later fakes. No, the
>trouble with the Holmesian jokes in Terror is that the rest of the
>production fights against them so much.

>Consider the Master's gloating lines: "I'm simply trying out a new
>product" "He just slipped away." They're delivered not with the
>indulgent black comedy that Williams developed. but with absolute lack
>of meaning by Delgado. It's possible that the actor wanted to put them
>over as single entendres. There's the difference between Delgado and
>Pertwee. Delgado had just started to act his part, would develop into
>something reasonably impressive. Pertwee had just stopped. However,
>Delgado' s infant skills apart, I'd guess that he was directed to play
>the lines straight, because the production team wasn't going along
>with what Holmes was trying to do.

>Like many of the best things about Doctor Who, Terrance Dicks had
>obviously been involved in shaking up the show's format between
>seasons seven and eight. The new format he comes up with is actually
>quite good, and I'd go so far as to say that it's the key that led to
>the in creasing fortunes of the show and the audience (if not
>creative) triumph of the Hinchcliffe years. In season seven, for all
>its quality and depth, Doctor Who looked like a show just struggling
>to avoid cancellation. Things changed from week to week, nothing was
>ever settled. The viewer didn't know to expect. It may be said that
>these traits are also the hallmarks of serious drama, but serious
>drama has never been what Doctor WHO needed. The reformatting put
>Doctor Who in the same bracket as any number of BBC drama series, fire
>bracket that would later be epitomized by Robot Banks Stewart's
>control over form and function in Shoestring, Bergerac, etc. It a
>smoothed out a lot of edges, giving the Doctor a permanent base in
>the shape of the lab, and a friendly looking lab it was too, unlike
>that Warehouse in Spearhead. UNIT was tuned into four actors and some
>stuntmen, rather than the anonymous body of variable soldiers it had
>been.

>The other characters were people out of BBC drama, who had human needs
>like cocoa and human problems like a need to challenge their parents.
>All in all, the format was built to last.

>Unfortunately, it was also designed to smooth over the cracks,
>particularly the cracks that Holmes enjoyed, Hence the po-faced
>reaction to his jokes, and the way that Pertwee stops trying to put
>any emotion into his character at all. While the Brigadier is given
>his last shreds of decent dialogue (recognizing the Doctor doesn`t
>need a scientist but a bimbo) even in this story he has to be told to
>search the plastics factories. If final proof were needed that the
>production is fighting Holmes, look at the scene where McDermot is
>wallowed by the chair. Rather than milk the Master's failing to trap
>him because of his Irish garrulousness (it's probably a blessing that
>this wasn't as played-up as Holmes would want) and then having to
>order him to sit down, it's all treated as terribly serious drama.
>Perhaps there' s been some tinkering with the script.

>Does the scientific accuracy of 'schizoid dissociation' seem Holmesian
>to you? And is this Bondish lurch from set piece to set piece
>something that the grand master of structure would have been proud of?
>As an aside, it's interesting note that some features of the format
>weren't retained. The Brigadier's line about 'not being totally
>desk-bound yet', and the rather strange disagreement that results from
>it show that he was going to be a bit more of a Picard figure, giving
>Benton and Yates the action roles. And the Doctor is given great
>screen time to boil out the contents of the Master's bomb, thus
>allowing the very last mention of what would have been an interesting
>conflict, as UNIT want alien technology for the weapons boffins, and
>the Doctor wants to deny them it.

>Hopefully Letts not to take the credit because he's ashamed. He does
>make two good decisions: using a different actor to portray the Master
>in disguise, and declining an action man to use CSO in examining the
>contents of the scientist's lunchbox. Unfortunately, Baz's love for
>CSO extends beyond all rational limits. In a show where there's
>obviously the ability to film exterior shots and cars, we get a CSO
>car interior. And a CSO wall. And a CSO kitchen. Indeed, the show
>becomes a comic strip visually at the same time as it does in dramatic
>terms, the typical Letts shot being somebody's face stepping into
>frame in front of a CSO background and shouting. Captions like
>'Meanwhile' ought to have appeared at the top of the screen. Often, we
>don't see who's speaking, and the incredible prissiness of not letting
>us see the Doctor dissect solid plastic... the mind fails to boggle.

>This is the place where any hint of feminine is stamped on. Zoe was
>quite a feminist character, mainly because Troughton refused to
>suppress her. Liz was a real sister. Jo was a bimbo. You can see Katy
>Manning (the other good Pertwee actor thinking bimbo, you can imagine
>her pacing the set beforehand and repeating "think bimbo, think
>bimbo..." As the exchange goes: "I'm not the tea lady." "Then what
>the blazes are you doing here?" We're expected to swallow the idea
>that Jo, having recently UNIT training, doesn't actually believe in
>aliens. And as for all the ordering her about and getting her to be
>cute and not get her pretty head into trouble... what a load of sexist
>nonsense.

>The UNIT family are set up as a circus, a lot of sound and fury
>signifying tea time. Toy soldiers who emphasize their family status by
>traveling in a family saloon. There's even a big black actor,
>employed to be strong, silent and drunken. Real seventies
>entertainment. And there are hardly any Autons in it. They don't get
>to say anything or show off their gun business until part three. And
>the ending' scrap too, the Master suddenly deciding to change sides
>for no reason at all. Again, in the book, Terrance at least has the
>Brigadier threaten to shoot him.

>So no, it could actually have been good, if they'd let Holmes have his
>head, and the new format should have allowed a little more life and
>humanity into the series. But no, they exiled the Doctor to Earth and
>made him a Tory.

>(3) [out of 10]
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Give me some names and I will try and dig out some quotes.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

God, I hate English students.

The ending of Terrror always gets brought up. The reality is that the Master starts worrying when the Autons threaten to leave without him, and therefore understands that he isn't as important as he thought he was. The Doctor then helps persuade him and he sees sense. That what I take from it anyway.

Perhaps it would of been improved by the Doctor putting the Master in "every mirror in the whole wide world". Pfff. Fuck off.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to remember Cornell and Kate Orman did some convention review trying to expose Jon Pertwee as a racist. The attitude of the pair of them and their belief that their own talent outclasses Classic Who certainly comes through in this quote.


Paul Cornell : The defining factor for our critics seems to be 'how like bad television is it?' It really pisses me off. There was a review in TV Zone recently of Kate Orman's new book which was entirely based on that premise, how like bad television is this book?
http://nzdwfc.tetrap.com/archive/tsv43/onediscussion.html


And we haven't mentioned Blum yet. Though to be fair, its only the first sixteen years of Classic Who he dismisses ie the best bit.
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Rigsby



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moderator General wrote:
Licence Denied:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Licence-Denied-Rumblings-Doctor-Underground/dp/075350104X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1279656599&sr=1-1-spell

I think Licence Revoked was what they were going to call the second Dalton Bond film until someone decided that Americans would interpret that as meaning he'd lost his driving licence.

Ah yes, sorry. I was thinking about that title last night too, in my surprise that Hollywood let a long word like Inception be used as a movie title.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rigsby wrote:
I seem to remember Cornell and Kate Orman did some convention review trying to expose Jon Pertwee as a racist. The attitude of the pair of them and their belief that their own talent outclasses Classic Who certainly comes through in this quote.


Paul Cornell : The defining factor for our critics seems to be 'how like bad television is it?' It really pisses me off. There was a review in TV Zone recently of Kate Orman's new book which was entirely based on that premise, how like bad television is this book?
http://nzdwfc.tetrap.com/archive/tsv43/onediscussion.html


And we haven't mentioned Blum yet. Though to be fair, its only the first sixteen years of Classic Who he dismisses ie the best bit.


Firstly, Steven - The dialogue is much better than Nu-Who and much better than yours.

Secondly, Who is more than about dialogue. It's about thought provoking adventures and it's about learning. Doctor Who discusses many problems encountered in the sciences - not on an English Lit course. The spine of Warriors' Gate is about causality. The Sea Devils we can see how a receiver can be made into a transmitter. In Genesis we watch concepts of implementing logic circuits with organic creatures and a lesson in conflicting logic at the end. Destiny we are basically discussing the premise at how a computerised machine cannot perform random functions purely and effectively ( the logical inpass part eg. Computers seed random numbers based on the system clock ). In Logopolis we are basically talking about sending data, modulated into audible tones, ( specifically hex code ) to matter in order to manipulate it which is VERY similiar to how modems operate. Not forgetting the whole season 18 was about entropy.

Give me a Nu-Who script that mentions I Ching, the second law of thermal dynamics or any of the things mentioned above. Maybe, just maybe you just DIDN'T GET IT. Btw, Paul, Father's Day was FUCKING WANK.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't read all of it, because frankly i can only take so much bollocks, but i do have to wonder how and why these people became fans of Dr Who in the first place.
I'm also disappointed in Cornell, because i do think that Father's Day and Human Nature are amongst the best that Nu-Who has to offer.

But i've gone off them now. Razz
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Mike



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cuntnell can fuck off.
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Mike



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ludders wrote:
I haven't read all of it, because frankly i can only take so much bollocks, but i do have to wonder how and why these people became fans of Dr Who in the first place.
I'm also disappointed in Cornell, because i do think that Father's Day and Human Nature are amongst the best that Nu-Who has to offer.

But i've gone off them now. Razz

Funnily enough I feel exactly the same. Laughing
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