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Is it fanwank?
Yes
 89%  [ 25 ]
No
 10%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 28

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Professor



Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Posts: 1948

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moderator General wrote:
Professor wrote:

Let's look at individual Seasons.
1: Clunkers: The Sensorites (Even The Keys of Marinus is enjoyable on its own terms)
2: Planet of Giants, Space Museum
3: (Many have faults, but nothing you'd call terrible)
4: Underwater Menace
5: Enemy of the World
6: (People will say Krotons or Space Pirates, personally I think both are excellent)
7: None
8: Axos?
9: Mutants, Time Monster (Although both have many fans and good points)
10: None
11: (Peladon, Death, Dinosaurs? All have critics, but none are downright terrible)
12: None
13: Planet of Evil
14: None
15: Invisible Enemy, (Underworld?)
16: Kroll
17: (Never actually watched; Creature, Nightmare, Nimon, which is the clunker?)
18: Leisure Hive (Meglos?)
19: Four to Doomsday, Time Flight
20: Terminus
21: Warriors, Twin Dilemma
22: None
23: Vervoids
24: Time and the Rani
25: Silver Nemesis
26: Battlefield


Dinosaurs & Planet of Evil, clunkers?!!! WTF?!!!


Dinosaurs is in brackets because certain people (GBers) will criticise the dino effects. So I included it to try and show a bit of objectivity as to definition of a clunker (Effects? Story?)

And to illustrate my point, Planet of Evil, great story, but I just can't get past the wobbly rubber foam piping on the space uniforms.



I know it shouldn't, but it's the one story for me where the production values pull it way down.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll let you have Dinosaurs ( even though I really like it ), but have you seen the jungle in Planet of Evil?
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Professor



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xM002x wrote:
I'll let you have Dinosaurs, but have you seen the jungle in Planet of Evil?


The jungle is brilliant.

Pity they spent the entire budget on it.

Confused
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that the best indoor set on classic, you reckon? I can't think of any other ones which even come close.

The forest in Time of Angels/Blood and Stone was also stunning, and is probably the best on New Who.
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Professor



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xM002x wrote:
Is that the best indoor set on classic Who, you reckon? I can't think of any other ones which even come close.

The forest in Time of Angels/Blood and Stone which was also stunning, and is probably the best of New Who.


The Dalek city? Maybe Castrovalva, Enlightenment was very authentic too.

You're right, but it's also how it was filmed, on film rather than video. As good as it looks, it is very jarring to move from an excellent jungle with brilliant red lighting to a door with a few leaves stuck to it.

I suppose it's the quality of those inserts that upstages the rest of the production, it would be alright if the costumes, props and spaceship set was adequate, but they are incredibly shoddy.
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War Arrow



Joined: 28 May 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just voted yes, mainly because I wasn't sure that I hadn't already voted no during some sort of psychotic interlude but... one vote, so I guess it wasn't me.

Generally I think it's true regarding the big difference between writers then and now - example that comes to mind being Mervyn Haisman scripting episodes of The Onedin Line which I didn't realise until it was mentioned in that thread. I know it's not true of all current writers but can you imagine someone like Chinball or Joe Lidster writing anything beyond either Who or a spin-off... Joseph Lidster's Life of Alexander the Great???? Shitball's Unbearable Lightness of Being?

Maybe that's a little unfair as TV has changed so much between now and then, so much nearer action movie / comic book narratives than stage / drama as was, and some current Who writers have managed to write beyond the "franchise" (not sure if anyone wants to mention Neil Gaiman or how he fits in here?) but the fact is, contributors are now writing for Doctor Who as a cult phenomenon just as they would be for a revived series of The Avengers or whatever, as opposed to writing for a TV series that happens to be Doctor Who... if you see what I mean.

So fanwank - generally speaking, yes.
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Moderator General



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Professor wrote:

You're right, but it's also how it was filmed, on film rather than video. As good as it looks, it is very jarring to move from an excellent jungle with brilliant red lighting to a door with a few leaves stuck to it.

I suppose it's the quality of those inserts that upstages the rest of the production, it would be alright if the costumes, props and spaceship set was adequate, but they are incredibly shoddy.


All that may be true but I still don't think it makes it a clunker.

The jungle set alone is one of the high-points of the classic series.

And remember, Hinchcliffe recommended Murray-Leach for a BAFTA for the jungle set - which he didn't get. Was he even nominated? Fathead, OTOH, has won a BAFTA for his writing. Confused
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Zerinza



Joined: 08 Sep 2010
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snodgrass wrote:
All I would like to add to your post is that the Classic Who producers and writers in the 60's and 70's were written by proper writers, not jumped up, over-promoted hack fanboys like we've got now. That's the reason the JNT era so polarized views. JNT attempted to cater to the fans, it didn't work well, and then Cartmel and Fanboys Co. took over the scripts. When the show snuffed it, the fans now had free reign over their obsession. This is where Muffit and Rusty and all those other Nu-Who "writers" became involved. The lunatics were finally in control of the asylum.

Very well said.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

War Arrow wrote:
I just voted yes, mainly because I wasn't sure that I hadn't already voted no during some sort of psychotic interlude but... one vote, so I guess it wasn't me.

Generally I think it's true regarding the big difference between writers then and now - example that comes to mind being Mervyn Haisman scripting episodes of The Onedin Line which I didn't realise until it was mentioned in that thread. I know it's not true of all current writers but can you imagine someone like Chinball or Joe Lidster writing anything beyond either Who or a spin-off... Joseph Lidster's Life of Alexander the Great???? Shitball's Unbearable Lightness of Being?

Maybe that's a little unfair as TV has changed so much between now and then, so much nearer action movie / comic book narratives than stage / drama as was, and some current Who writers have managed to write beyond the "franchise" (not sure if anyone wants to mention Neil Gaiman or how he fits in here?) but the fact is, contributors are now writing for Doctor Who as a cult phenomenon just as they would be for a revived series of The Avengers or whatever, as opposed to writing for a TV series that happens to be Doctor Who... if you see what I mean.

So fanwank - generally speaking, yes.


I'm looking forward to the Gaiman one, actually. Never read or seen any of his stuff before, but I'm just getting a gut feeling that it will be good. He has a pretty hefty reputation and he's got some Science-Fiction experience.
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Chancellor Valium



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xM002x wrote:
Is that the best indoor set on classic, you reckon? I can't think of any other ones which even come close.

The interior of Gabriel Chase, maybe?
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RobFilth



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The indoor studio forest in "Creature From The Pit" is quite authentic too, but like "Planet Of Evil", it too was shot on film rather than video.
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Greywoolfe



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

xM002x wrote:
Come on, own up. Nothing will happen.



I already 'owned up' when I posted in this thread. Rolling Eyes What you should be asking, is if I'm the third voter, and Rani is one of the others, then who is the remainder?
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Greywoolfe



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Professor wrote:

1: Rose, Aliens of London/World War 3, Long Game, Boom Town, Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways
2: New Earth, Tooth and Claw, Rise of the Cybermen/Age of Steel, The Idiot's Lantern, Love and Monsters, Fear Her, Army of Ghosts/Doomsday
3: Smith and Jones, Shakespeare Code, Gridlock, Daleks in Manhattan/Evolution of the Daleks, The Lazarus Experiment, 42, Utopia/Sound of Drums/LoTL, Time Crash, Voyage of the Damned
4: Partners in Crime, Fires of Pompeii, Sontaran Stratagem/Poison Sky, Doctor's Daughter, Unicorn and the Wasp, Midnight, Turn Left, Stolen Earth/Journey's End
Specials: Next Doctor, Planet of the Dead, Waters of Mars, End of Time
5: Beast Below, Victory of the Daleks, Hungry Earth/Cold Blood, The Lodger, Pandorica Opens/Big Bang


Now all right, you might disagree with what I think are clunkers, and there's a disparity between the number of stories a year from Classic to Nu. But I think this definitely shows that actually, Classic Who has relatively few clunkers (And the only out and out terrible ones are Twin and TaTR). NuWho on the other hand, RTD didn't start out too badly in the first season, but ramps the shitness up to 11 for the next three seasons and the specials. Moffatt's first season is coming back down, but he could get better or worse next year.

Anyway, ratio firmly in favour of classic who.

In actual fact, I count 21 outright classic clunkers from 26 years. RTD reaches 21 clunkers by the end of Series 3.


My opinions on Nu Who clunkers?

1. The Long Game, Boom Town. While not out and out stinkers, they were more boring than the rest, and although there were burping bins in Rose and farting aliens in AOL/WW3, the stories more or less made up for that. The most outstanding stories here were Dalek, The Empty Child and The Doctor Dances, which were head and shoulders above the rest.

2. The Cybermen two-parter, the Dalek finale, Fear Her and Love and Monsters. The rest were so-so. The dynamic between Wose and Ten was what caused this series to sag. The most outstanding story was The Girl In The Fireplace.

3. The Dalek two-parter again. The rest were OK, and the best ones were Blink, Human Nature/family of Blood, and 42.

4. The dalek finale (Again), The Sontaran two-parter. The rest were better than the previous series, and the best were Midnight, and Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead.

5. Amy's Choice, Vincent and the Doctor. While they were my least favourite, they were still better than much of series 2, and Matt can make anything watchable. Even the dalek story was half decent. The best ones, The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang, The Eleventh Hour, the weeping angels two-parter.

The specials: Voyage of the Damned, Planet of the Dead. The rest were OK, the best ones were Waters of Mars and The End of Time. (If only to complete the Gallifrey arc and get rid of Tennant.) Even The Next Doctor was a half-decent Cybermen story, if you ignore that they are Cybusmen and not the Mondas boys.

My conclusion? Moffatt is the best thing to happen to Nu-Who, and unless you can get decent writers who understand their subject matter, don't get anyone to attempt to write stories featuring classic monsters.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greywoolfe wrote:
xM002x wrote:
Come on, own up. Nothing will happen.



I already 'owned up' when I posted in this thread. Rolling Eyes What you should be asking, is if I'm the third voter, and Rani is one of the others, then who is the remainder?


Yes, that's precisely what I am asking, you silly wolf. Why would I be asking for confirmation off someone I already knew told me? And BTW, I haven't really got a tank so don't get upset!! Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes


I REPEAT: You will not be gibbed by an Ostwind.
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Greywoolfe



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As if I would be upset by someone who hides behind the anonymity of a computer screen.



I give just as good as I get- I think I'll fit right in here. Razz
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