FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Profile Log in to check your private messages
The Leisure Hive Forum Index  Log in  Register
New Who-proof that fanboys ruin their show?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
 
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    The Leisure Hive Forum Index -> The Current Era
View previous topic :: View next topic  

Is it fanwank?
Yes
 89%  [ 25 ]
No
 10%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 28

Author Message
xM002x
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greywoolfe wrote:


My conclusion? Moffatt is the best thing to happen to Nu-Who, and unless you can get decent writers who understand their subject matter, don't get anyone to attempt to write stories featuring classic monsters.


Nobody here is saying that being a well rounded writer who is knowledgeable in other subject areas and being a fan of Doctor Who are mutually exclusive. Your implication skills have failed you once more, my wolf. What I'm saying is that merely having an in depth knowledge of Who continuity is not enough to write good Science-Fiction; Doctor Who is a subset of Science-Fiction. Ideally, the writer would be someone who forms a logical conjunction ( or intersection, in set theory ) between Being a fan of the seriesBeing a competant Science-Fiction writer.

Why would being a huge Doctor Who fan make you a good writer exclusively? Of course it doesn't, you fool. Very Happy If anything it risks making it turn out like the late JNT era, i.e., fanwank bollocks.


Last edited by xM002x on Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:57 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
Author Message
xM002x
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greywoolfe wrote:
As if I would be upset by someone who hides behind the anonymity of a computer screen.



I give just as good as I get- I think I'll fit right in here. Razz


Very Happy
Back to top
Author Message
Greywoolfe



Joined: 08 Sep 2010
Posts: 93
Location: In a cat box, somewhere beneath Stonehenge.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xM002x wrote:
Greywoolfe wrote:
As if I would be upset by someone who hides behind the anonymity of a computer screen.



I give just as good as I get- I think I'll fit right in here. Razz


Very Happy


Wink
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Author Message
Professor



Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Posts: 1948

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greywoolfe wrote:
Professor wrote:

1: Rose, Aliens of London/World War 3, Long Game, Boom Town, Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways
2: New Earth, Tooth and Claw, Rise of the Cybermen/Age of Steel, The Idiot's Lantern, Love and Monsters, Fear Her, Army of Ghosts/Doomsday
3: Smith and Jones, Shakespeare Code, Gridlock, Daleks in Manhattan/Evolution of the Daleks, The Lazarus Experiment, 42, Utopia/Sound of Drums/LoTL, Time Crash, Voyage of the Damned
4: Partners in Crime, Fires of Pompeii, Sontaran Stratagem/Poison Sky, Doctor's Daughter, Unicorn and the Wasp, Midnight, Turn Left, Stolen Earth/Journey's End
Specials: Next Doctor, Planet of the Dead, Waters of Mars, End of Time
5: Beast Below, Victory of the Daleks, Hungry Earth/Cold Blood, The Lodger, Pandorica Opens/Big Bang


Now all right, you might disagree with what I think are clunkers, and there's a disparity between the number of stories a year from Classic to Nu. But I think this definitely shows that actually, Classic Who has relatively few clunkers (And the only out and out terrible ones are Twin and TaTR). NuWho on the other hand, RTD didn't start out too badly in the first season, but ramps the shitness up to 11 for the next three seasons and the specials. Moffatt's first season is coming back down, but he could get better or worse next year.

Anyway, ratio firmly in favour of classic who.

In actual fact, I count 21 outright classic clunkers from 26 years. RTD reaches 21 clunkers by the end of Series 3.


My opinions on Nu Who clunkers?

1. The Long Game, Boom Town. While not out and out stinkers, they were more boring than the rest, and although there were burping bins in Rose and farting aliens in AOL/WW3, the stories more or less made up for that. The most outstanding stories here were Dalek, The Empty Child and The Doctor Dances, which were head and shoulders above the rest.

2. The Cybermen two-parter, the Dalek finale, Fear Her and Love and Monsters. The rest were so-so. The dynamic between Wose and Ten was what caused this series to sag. The most outstanding story was The Girl In The Fireplace.

3. The Dalek two-parter again. The rest were OK, and the best ones were Blink, Human Nature/family of Blood, and 42.

4. The dalek finale (Again), The Sontaran two-parter. The rest were better than the previous series, and the best were Midnight, and Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead.

5. Amy's Choice, Vincent and the Doctor. While they were my least favourite, they were still better than much of series 2, and Matt can make anything watchable. Even the dalek story was half decent. The best ones, The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang, The Eleventh Hour, the weeping angels two-parter.

The specials: Voyage of the Damned, Planet of the Dead. The rest were OK, the best ones were Waters of Mars and The End of Time. (If only to complete the Gallifrey arc and get rid of Tennant.) Even The Next Doctor was a half-decent Cybermen story, if you ignore that they are Cybusmen and not the Mondas boys.

My conclusion? Moffatt is the best thing to happen to Nu-Who, and unless you can get decent writers who understand their subject matter, don't get anyone to attempt to write stories featuring classic monsters.


See Next Doctor has a lovely premise, that someone else gets infected with the Doctor's memories, and David Morrisey didn't play it badly so much as imitating the irritating Tennant. The Hot Air Balloon as Tardis is quite funny.

But, nothing else in the story makes any sense at all. The Cybershades are beyond ridicule with no explanation for their existence or disappearance, the Black Companion in the Victorian Era acting like a Spice Girl, Miss Hartigan who has no rhyme nor reason to her actions, indeed there is no rhyme nor reason to why the Cybermen are working with her. Why are the Cybermen running a workhouse and how the hell does one kid on a treadmill power a giant transformer? And when Cybermen can work tirelessly forever, why the hell do they need slave labour?

When you've got all that crap going on, it's impossible to concentrate on Morrissey's relatively engaging performance.

Most of the time, RTD doesn't have an original idea (42 = 24, Shakespeare Code = Da Vinci Code, Voyage of the Damned = Poseidon/Titanic and he steals directly from better writers with no real idea of why those things work. He makes the stealing acceptable by being so blatant about it.

But even when RTD does get a decent original idea, very often it's an isolated idea of which he has no idea about putting in a logical sci fi format (Sci fi at its best should comment on the real world), and so instead of creating a coherent story, he strings a whole load of isolated ideas along, bending any kind of sense or logic in order to make them fit together. It gives the impression that it's made up as it goes along, because it is. He doesn't actually understand the nature of storytelling.

Moffatt does understand that nature, which is why his episodes are more successful by far. It just comes naturally to him. Unfortunately with the shitty Writer's Tale, some idiots (Chibnall, Blum) seem to have got the idea that writing in the way RTD does is actually inspirational or genius, when the man actually has no talent whatsoever.

Yes there are some fun moments in the episodes you mention, some good bits even. But very rarely do the episodes form more than the sum of their parts because there is no coherent thought or philosophy behind them. RTD doesn't believe in anything in the way that Isaac Asimov or Arthur C Clarke believed in science, in the way that Barry Letts believed in Eastern Thought or the way that Neil Gaiman believes in his fantasy worlds.

That's why,when Classic Who has a clunker, it's because of poor production values or bad acting or editing or lack of time either in writing or production, or internal politics. Whereas with RTD's who, the clunkers start with the writing rather than the production. It can still look good, but the whole operation is doing the wrong things. Thus Classic Clunkers are relatively rare, but Nu Clunkers, even going by your choice of episodes, are relatively common.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Author Message
RobFilth



Joined: 08 May 2007
Posts: 9013
Location: Rallying against Rani's Repetitive Rhubarb and Rubbish.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A spot on analysis Professor.
_________________


Rallying against Rani's Repetitive Rhubarb and Rubbish.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Author Message
Mistress Rani



Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 8621
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Professor wrote:

Most of the time, RTD doesn't have an original idea (42 = 24, Shakespeare Code = Da Vinci Code, Voyage of the Damned = Poseidon/Titanic and he steals directly from better writers with no real idea of why those things work. He makes the stealing acceptable by being so blatant about it.

Brain of Morbius=Frankenstein etc....
_________________
"I'll be surprised if there's as much as 3 million of the audience left by the time Moffatt finally gets to take over" RobFilth 3/6/08

"I expect the BBC will quietly let Tennant go at the end of this year...." RobFilth 9/6/08
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Author Message
Professor



Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Posts: 1948

PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mistress Rani wrote:
Professor wrote:

Most of the time, RTD doesn't have an original idea (42 = 24, Shakespeare Code = Da Vinci Code, Voyage of the Damned = Poseidon/Titanic and he steals directly from better writers with no real idea of why those things work. He makes the stealing acceptable by being so blatant about it.

Brain of Morbius=Frankenstein etc....


Missing the point Rani. Robert Holmes first and foremost wants to tell a Doctor Who story about Morbius. The Frankenstein story gives him an angle to come at it from.

RTD takes the angle first, and then comes up with a Doctor Who story to shoehorn into it. Voyage of the Damned being an obvious example. Why did that story need to happen on a Poseidon/Titanic like ship?

That's the difference between "inspired by" and "stolen from".
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Author Message
Vector-Victor



Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 2599
Location: Cork, Ireland

PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Professor wrote:
Mistress Rani wrote:
Professor wrote:

Most of the time, RTD doesn't have an original idea (42 = 24, Shakespeare Code = Da Vinci Code, Voyage of the Damned = Poseidon/Titanic and he steals directly from better writers with no real idea of why those things work. He makes the stealing acceptable by being so blatant about it.

Brain of Morbius=Frankenstein etc....


Missing the point Rani. Robert Holmes first and foremost wants to tell a Doctor Who story about Morbius. The Frankenstein story gives him an angle to come at it from.

RTD takes the angle first, and then comes up with a Doctor Who story to shoehorn into it. Voyage of the Damned being an obvious example. Why did that story need to happen on a Poseidon/Titanic like ship?

That's the difference between "inspired by" and "stolen from".


Aye. And Holmes and his associates, like Chris Boucher, often put in
allusions to non-sci-fi stories to help the general public understand it
(hence "The Robots of Death" being structured like an Agatha Christie
murder mystery).

I think Moffat is more imaginative with his borrowings than RTD- TTOA/FAS had interesting shout-outs to "The Ring" (the image of the Angel on the monitor) and "Aliens" (soldiers vs. aliens).

By contrast, there was no reason why "Voyage of the Damned" should feature a replica Titanic in space, except that RTD wanted to rip off the popular Leo & Kate movie.
_________________
Stan: Nobody threatens my family! Now get out of the way or I'll shoot you all!

Hayley: Oh, God, it's my junior prom all over again.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Author Message
Snodgrass



Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 191

PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still think Muffit is no better than RTD. OK, so he removed the shitehouse monsters we were forced to endure(Barring the giant space-turkey and the Fatleks) and Matt Smith pwns Tensquee but the finale at season five was utter fanwank.

"Teh Doctoh saves teh Universe" is the sort of premise of a fanfic. How is that any better than the premise of RTD's endings aka "Teh Doctoh's companion kills teh Daleks and falls in love", "Teh Cybermen and Daleks duke it out", "Teh Master takes over teh Earth and Doctohs companion must stop him" or "Teh Daleks attempt to destroy all reality and the Doctoh and all my OC's defeat them!"

True, Moffat is far superior in terms of writing, bu for God's sake, just stop it! And sack Shitball, Roberts and all those fanboy writers!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Author Message
Professor



Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Posts: 1948

PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snodgrass wrote:
I still think Muffit is no better than RTD. OK, so he removed the shitehouse monsters we were forced to endure(Barring the giant space-turkey and the Fatleks) and Matt Smith pwns Tensquee but the finale at season five was utter fanwank.

"Teh Doctoh saves teh Universe" is the sort of premise of a fanfic. How is that any better than the premise of RTD's endings aka "Teh Doctoh's companion kills teh Daleks and falls in love", "Teh Cybermen and Daleks duke it out", "Teh Master takes over teh Earth and Doctohs companion must stop him" or "Teh Daleks attempt to destroy all reality and the Doctoh and all my OC's defeat them!"

True, Moffat is far superior in terms of writing, bu for God's sake, just stop it! And sack Shitball, Roberts and all those fanboy writers!


Quite right, although this is a separate point to the writing. This is a horrible Americanisation that has needlessly infiltrated all British TV.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    The Leisure Hive Forum Index -> The Current Era All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Page 5 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

© 2007-2008 Informe.com. Get Free Forum Hosting
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
 :: 
BBTech Template by © 2003-04 MDesign