FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Profile Log in to check your private messages
The Leisure Hive Forum Index  Log in  Register
RTD and Doctor Who viewers in the 80s
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    The Leisure Hive Forum Index -> The Current Era
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Arthur Stengos



Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:49 pm    Post subject: RTD and Doctor Who viewers in the 80s Reply with quote

I was thinking of all the hassle and ridicule poor JNT got for Doctor Who in the 1980s which then got me thinking would RTD of gone down well with viewers in the 1980s considering that viewers then were not as easily pleased as viewers nowadays.

I myself am a fan of 80's Who and its pisses me off when fans and general viewers criticize JNT for Dr Who becoming a joke when in my opinion RTD was the cunt who made our beloved show into a shit stained joke yet he gets all the praise and worship for his work and for resurrecting the show. I'd take the Kandyman any day over those stupid fucking immature farting aliens.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Author Message
War Arrow



Joined: 28 May 2010
Posts: 550
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The JNT years weren't without their problems, but otherwise you'll get no argument from me.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Author Message
Arthur Stengos



Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

War Arrow wrote:
The JNT years weren't without their problems, but otherwise you'll get no argument from me.


Yeah I know the JNT years weren't without their problems but JNT got a telling off for it yet when RTD went wrong (which was almost all the time IMO) nothing was said and no one complained. I have a feeling that if this was the 80s then RTD probably would of got a telling off too. But I guess viewers nowadays are far more easily pleased than before.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Author Message
War Arrow



Joined: 28 May 2010
Posts: 550
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the criteria for good TV now is flashing lights, so it seems, and RTD does that very well. I know what you mean though - I get a real Emperor's New Clothes feeling.

"Is it my imagination, or is this in fact really, really shit?"

It's astonishing, quite frankly - entire episodes that make minor points like casting Alexei Sayle appear quite sober in comparison.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Author Message
Professor



Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Posts: 1948

PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two things.

JNT explicitly tried his best to connect with fans and give them what they wanted. RTD couldn't give a shit about the fans.

Secondly, JNT was targeted by DWB, which had a grudge against him for some reason. Back then I suppose, it was easy for one fan with a grudge, who happened to edit a magazine, to be able to direct a lot of bad headlines which "fans" were behind. Nowadays we know that that is mostly crap. Even on GB, you're hard pressed to find two fans who agree about anything.

Anyway, I wondered who might be editing DWB who had a grudge. I looked up the only copy I own, number 101 with the Savages photonovel Smile It's David Gibbs and Gary Leigh, don't know much about them.

However, just glanced at the letters page. 1st Letter.

DWB wrote:

Russell T Davies
Manchester
I'm just writing to say thank you! I walked into work this morning to find someone had left issue 98 of your magazine on my desk (I work at Granada, perhaps this was David Plowright's parting gesture) . Anyway, the reason for this only became clear when I flicked to page 23 - the Dark Season review.
Completely marvellous! Of course, I agree with every word: but then, since I wrote Dark Season, I suppose I'm slightly biased. David Gibbs, thank you very much. Sometimes it's hard with children's tv to know whether anyone's really watching, let alone remembering, so that review's cheered me up no end.
And thanks in particular for not mentioning the terrible wigs!


So there we have it. Proof that DWB editor David Gibbs was liking RTD's drivel back in 1992. And presumably RTD started reading DWB from then on.

I looked up Dark Season

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Season

Quote:

Commonality with Doctor Who

Dark Season contained some similarity to Doctor Who, which Russell T Davies revived in 2005. Most notably, Marcie occupies a similar narrative space to the Doctor, with Reet and Thomas as her companions. Nevertheless, this broad structural similarity to Doctor Who has been categorically denied by Russell T Davies as intentional[3]. Davies has claimed that the only direct reference to so-called "classic" Doctor Who is a scene in which Reet uses a yo-yo to test gravity[4].

Nevertheless, elements from this production have been seen in Doctor Who fiction which post-dates Dark Season.

The earliest reference was a direct mention of Marcie in Davies' 1996 Doctor Who – The New Adventures novel Damaged Goods. Later, when Doctor Who was again being produced on television, Davies trapped Rose Tyler behind a door that refused to open In "The End of the World" — just as he had done with Reet in Episode Six of Dark Season. When challenged by their rescuers not to go anywhere, both characters offered the same response: "Where am I gonna go, Ipswich?". Dark Season would again be recalled in 2006, when the similarity between the setting of Dark Season and the 2006 episode "School Reunion" received frequent attention[5][6][7]. Though Davies did not write the script for "School Reunion", he ordered its relocation from an army base to a school, evocative of Dark Season[8].


So he's not only repeating himself. He's repeating himself using things that he knows went down well with DWB.

Quote:

Reception

The show has received increased critical attention following both its release on DVD and Davies' announcement of his new programme aimed at the same target audience, The Sarah Jane Adventures.

Television Heaven's review concluded by saying, "By turns amusing, aware, suspenseful, exciting and imaginative, 'Dark Season' stands as an almost criminally overlooked example of children's genre television of the highest quality, and also as an early indication of a future major creative talent in the form of Russell T Davies taking his first steps on the long and winding creative road to a glittering future."[9]

Head writer of series 1 of The Sarah Jane Adventures, Gareth Roberts, found career inspiration in Dark Season. He has said that Dark Season "was exactly what I wanted to do at the time—write a cracking kids' sci-fi show."[10]

Not all modern reviews have been quite so glowing, however. When the opinions of average viewers were solicited by the BBC for their Cult website, a respondent named "Dan" summed up the panel by saying, "All in all a bit of a mixed bag".[11] Viewers cited general enthusiasm for the acting of the regular child actors, and praised the presence of generally strong ideas, but were disappointed by some of the adult actors. Jacqueline Pearce was a particularly divisive influence for the group, with one describing her as someone he "can watch open an envelope", another taking "guilty pleasure" at her "high camp", and the third failing to "see the point of Jacqueline Pearce".

Likewise, DVD Times called it "an enjoyable story", but also criticized the split of the plot into two halves as "clumsy" (perhaps not realising the storylines were separate serials). It further bemoaned a "tendency towards handwaving and gobbledygook to resolve the plot(s)".[12]


Likewise, if DWB and Gibbs could give it a good review, surely they were not promoting handwaving and gobblydegook plot resolution, or were they?

Could such things be connected? Is it time to send out our regular private investigator FordTimelord?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Author Message
FordTimelord
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Professor wrote:
Two things.

JNT explicitly tried his best to connect with fans and give them what they wanted. RTD couldn't give a shit about the fans.

Secondly, JNT was targeted by DWB, which had a grudge against him for some reason. Back then I suppose, it was easy for one fan with a grudge, who happened to edit a magazine, to be able to direct a lot of bad headlines which "fans" were behind. Nowadays we know that that is mostly crap. Even on GB, you're hard pressed to find two fans who agree about anything.

Anyway, I wondered who might be editing DWB who had a grudge. I looked up the only copy I own, number 101 with the Savages photonovel Smile It's David Gibbs and Gary Leigh, don't know much about them.

However, just glanced at the letters page. 1st Letter.

DWB wrote:

Russell T Davies
Manchester
I'm just writing to say thank you! I walked into work this morning to find someone had left issue 98 of your magazine on my desk (I work at Granada, perhaps this was David Plowright's parting gesture) . Anyway, the reason for this only became clear when I flicked to page 23 - the Dark Season review.
Completely marvellous! Of course, I agree with every word: but then, since I wrote Dark Season, I suppose I'm slightly biased. David Gibbs, thank you very much. Sometimes it's hard with children's tv to know whether anyone's really watching, let alone remembering, so that review's cheered me up no end.
And thanks in particular for not mentioning the terrible wigs!


So there we have it. Proof that DWB editor David Gibbs was liking RTD's drivel back in 1992. And presumably RTD started reading DWB from then on.

I looked up Dark Season

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Season

Quote:

Commonality with Doctor Who

Dark Season contained some similarity to Doctor Who, which Russell T Davies revived in 2005. Most notably, Marcie occupies a similar narrative space to the Doctor, with Reet and Thomas as her companions. Nevertheless, this broad structural similarity to Doctor Who has been categorically denied by Russell T Davies as intentional[3]. Davies has claimed that the only direct reference to so-called "classic" Doctor Who is a scene in which Reet uses a yo-yo to test gravity[4].

Nevertheless, elements from this production have been seen in Doctor Who fiction which post-dates Dark Season.

The earliest reference was a direct mention of Marcie in Davies' 1996 Doctor Who – The New Adventures novel Damaged Goods. Later, when Doctor Who was again being produced on television, Davies trapped Rose Tyler behind a door that refused to open In "The End of the World" — just as he had done with Reet in Episode Six of Dark Season. When challenged by their rescuers not to go anywhere, both characters offered the same response: "Where am I gonna go, Ipswich?". Dark Season would again be recalled in 2006, when the similarity between the setting of Dark Season and the 2006 episode "School Reunion" received frequent attention[5][6][7]. Though Davies did not write the script for "School Reunion", he ordered its relocation from an army base to a school, evocative of Dark Season[8].


So he's not only repeating himself. He's repeating himself using things that he knows went down well with DWB.

Quote:

Reception

The show has received increased critical attention following both its release on DVD and Davies' announcement of his new programme aimed at the same target audience, The Sarah Jane Adventures.

Television Heaven's review concluded by saying, "By turns amusing, aware, suspenseful, exciting and imaginative, 'Dark Season' stands as an almost criminally overlooked example of children's genre television of the highest quality, and also as an early indication of a future major creative talent in the form of Russell T Davies taking his first steps on the long and winding creative road to a glittering future."[9]

Head writer of series 1 of The Sarah Jane Adventures, Gareth Roberts, found career inspiration in Dark Season. He has said that Dark Season "was exactly what I wanted to do at the time—write a cracking kids' sci-fi show."[10]

Not all modern reviews have been quite so glowing, however. When the opinions of average viewers were solicited by the BBC for their Cult website, a respondent named "Dan" summed up the panel by saying, "All in all a bit of a mixed bag".[11] Viewers cited general enthusiasm for the acting of the regular child actors, and praised the presence of generally strong ideas, but were disappointed by some of the adult actors. Jacqueline Pearce was a particularly divisive influence for the group, with one describing her as someone he "can watch open an envelope", another taking "guilty pleasure" at her "high camp", and the third failing to "see the point of Jacqueline Pearce".

Likewise, DVD Times called it "an enjoyable story", but also criticized the split of the plot into two halves as "clumsy" (perhaps not realising the storylines were separate serials). It further bemoaned a "tendency towards handwaving and gobbledygook to resolve the plot(s)".[12]


Likewise, if DWB and Gibbs could give it a good review, surely they were not promoting handwaving and gobblydegook plot resolution, or were they?

Could such things be connected? Is it time to send out our regular private investigator FordTimelord?


Please define more clearly the parameters within which you wish me to search.
Back to top
Author Message
Professor



Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Posts: 1948

PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What, if any, are the connections between RTD and David Gibbs/Gary Leigh or Doctor Who/Dreamwatch Bulletin?

Did any permanent staffers at DWB ever have any influence or move into any job at the BBC or were they involved in any of the various official media (TV/Books/Audio)?

Has RTD ever made any derogatory comments about JNT or the JNT era? Or indeed any era of Doctor Who?

Who first employed RTD as a writer and is there any legal way of getting an apology out of him?

Who really shot JNT in Dallas 1966? Was the Zapruder tape really found hidden in Billy Hartnells wig?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Author Message
FordTimelord
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Professor wrote:
What, if any, are the connections between RTD and David Gibbs/Gary Leigh or Doctor Who/Dreamwatch Bulletin?

Did any permanent staffers at DWB ever have any influence or move into any job at the BBC or were they involved in any of the various official media (TV/Books/Audio)?

Has RTD ever made any derogatory comments about JNT or the JNT era? Or indeed any era of Doctor Who?

Who first employed RTD as a writer and is there any legal way of getting an apology out of him?

Who really shot JNT in Dallas 1966? Was the Zapruder tape really found hidden in Billy Hartnells wig?


I'll see what I can find.
Back to top
Author Message
Jimmy Nimbus



Joined: 07 Mar 2010
Posts: 414

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I rather liked Dark Season at the time but at the time there was shit all other decent kids' TV that I remember much of.

Watching it on DVD later, especially post New Who is a trifle disappointing. I had the same experience with The Second Coming which I genuinely thought to be a brilliant bit of telly but now I can only see the same old narrative tricks in action.

For in insight into the RTD writing style, btw, I believe it's the commentary on the latter where he says "putting a man and woman on screen together is all you need to imply a love story" or words to that effect. Essentially that the audience will just automatically Go There without you having to do anything.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Author Message
Professor



Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Posts: 1948

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jimmy Nimbus wrote:
I rather liked Dark Season at the time but at the time there was shit all other decent kids' TV that I remember much of.

Watching it on DVD later, especially post New Who is a trifle disappointing. I had the same experience with The Second Coming which I genuinely thought to be a brilliant bit of telly but now I can only see the same old narrative tricks in action.

For in insight into the RTD writing style, btw, I believe it's the commentary on the latter where he says "putting a man and woman on screen together is all you need to imply a love story" or words to that effect. Essentially that the audience will just automatically Go There without you having to do anything.


That is entirely lazy from a writer. Yes there are tricks you can do, but most of these come out in directing or acting. For instance, two actors holding hands conveys more than two actors just standing there. Good writers will put this in stage directions, otherwise it's entirely down to the acting/directing team to work out how to convey things.

The thing is, RTD expects the audience to "get it" without any decent directing or acting shortcuts, but then overwrites the damn thing anyway. Yes Russell, we got that Rose Tyler is in love with the Doctor. We got that one thank you, we got it by the end of the first episode. No, we don't need telling again thank you, no we don't need to spend half of each episode watching Bingo blubbing her eyes out saying how much she misses him, or he's the most wonderful man in the universe. No, no, no, no, no....FUCK OFF!

Narratively he's atrocious. Pinter he ain't. He reminds me of Laurence Housman who became Britain's most controversial playwright for a time by putting forbidden characters (Such as Royalty and Jesus) in plays, without actually doing anything interesting with them. RTD is the same. Breaking taboos for the hell of it with no idea what he''s doing or why, for the same type of notoriety.

Nobody knows who Laurence Housman is nowadays Smile
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Author Message
Vector-Victor



Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 2599
Location: Cork, Ireland

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Professor wrote:

Narratively he's atrocious. Pinter he ain't. He reminds me of Laurence Housman who became Britain's most controversial playwright for a time by putting forbidden characters (Such as Royalty and Jesus) in plays, without actually doing anything interesting with them. RTD is the same. Breaking taboos for the hell of it with no idea what he''s doing or why, for the same type of notoriety.

Nobody knows who Laurence Housman is nowadays Smile


Speak for yourself. Wink I've known about Laurence Housman for years-the left-wing bookshop Housmans in London is named after him.

http://www.housmans.com/laurence.php

Never read any of Housman's fiction though, although the critic Brian Stableford speaks highly of "Gods and Their Makers", and "All-Fellows and the Cloak of Friendship".
_________________
Stan: Nobody threatens my family! Now get out of the way or I'll shoot you all!

Hayley: Oh, God, it's my junior prom all over again.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Author Message
Professor



Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Posts: 1948

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vector-Victor wrote:
Professor wrote:

Narratively he's atrocious. Pinter he ain't. He reminds me of Laurence Housman who became Britain's most controversial playwright for a time by putting forbidden characters (Such as Royalty and Jesus) in plays, without actually doing anything interesting with them. RTD is the same. Breaking taboos for the hell of it with no idea what he''s doing or why, for the same type of notoriety.

Nobody knows who Laurence Housman is nowadays Smile


Speak for yourself. Wink I've known about Laurence Housman for years-the left-wing bookshop Housmans in London is named after him.

http://www.housmans.com/laurence.php

Never read any of Housman's fiction though, although the critic Brian Stableford speaks highly of "Gods and Their Makers", and "All-Fellows and the Cloak of Friendship".


Laughing

Maybe so, but Trevor Nunn isn't about to announce a new production of The Little Plays of St Francis now is he. He has gone from being one of the most controversial and well known playwrights in Britain, to Brother of A.E. If that.

I checked the Housman's website. They don't seem to have anything of his on the site, although they only have a small selection. Next time you are in, do check and see if they actually carry any of his work, as far as I know he is completely out of print. All my copies of his scripts are at least 60 or 70 years old. I'd be delighted if he's still being published somewhere. But if the shop that bears his name doesn't have anything, then you see what I mean about literary fashion.

RTD could be feted as the most wonderful writer on earth right now. In 20 years, no one may know his name.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Author Message
renegade



Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Posts: 670

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Professor wrote:
Vector-Victor wrote:
Professor wrote:

Narratively he's atrocious. Pinter he ain't. He reminds me of Laurence Housman who became Britain's most controversial playwright for a time by putting forbidden characters (Such as Royalty and Jesus) in plays, without actually doing anything interesting with them. RTD is the same. Breaking taboos for the hell of it with no idea what he''s doing or why, for the same type of notoriety.

Nobody knows who Laurence Housman is nowadays Smile


Speak for yourself. Wink I've known about Laurence Housman for years-the left-wing bookshop Housmans in London is named after him.

http://www.housmans.com/laurence.php

Never read any of Housman's fiction though, although the critic Brian Stableford speaks highly of "Gods and Their Makers", and "All-Fellows and the Cloak of Friendship".


Laughing

Maybe so, but Trevor Nunn isn't about to announce a new production of The Little Plays of St Francis now is he. He has gone from being one of the most controversial and well known playwrights in Britain, to Brother of A.E. If that.

I checked the Housman's website. They don't seem to have anything of his on the site, although they only have a small selection. Next time you are in, do check and see if they actually carry any of his work, as far as I know he is completely out of print. All my copies of his scripts are at least 60 or 70 years old. I'd be delighted if he's still being published somewhere. But if the shop that bears his name doesn't have anything, then you see what I mean about literary fashion.

RTD could be feted as the most wonderful writer on earth right now. In 20 years, no one may know his name.


He did 5 years of Doctor Who, the only way no one will remember his name is if there are no more Doctor Who fans. No one may respect his name, that's a distinct possibility and one I'd welcome. But while there are fans he's guaranteed a place in our memories.

And like JNT he'll look better if someone worse comes along. Hard to imagine just now, but the same could have been said of JNT before 2005. And if it wasn't for the fans no one would remember JNT.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Author Message
RobFilth



Joined: 08 May 2007
Posts: 9013
Location: Rallying against Rani's Repetitive Rhubarb and Rubbish.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vector-Victor wrote:
Professor wrote:

Narratively he's atrocious. Pinter he ain't. He reminds me of Laurence Housman who became Britain's most controversial playwright for a time by putting forbidden characters (Such as Royalty and Jesus) in plays, without actually doing anything interesting with them. RTD is the same. Breaking taboos for the hell of it with no idea what he''s doing or why, for the same type of notoriety.

Nobody knows who Laurence Housman is nowadays Smile


Speak for yourself. Wink I've known about Laurence Housman for years-the left-wing bookshop Housmans in London is named after him.

http://www.housmans.com/laurence.php

Never read any of Housman's fiction though, although the critic Brian Stableford speaks highly of "Gods and Their Makers", and "All-Fellows and the Cloak of Friendship".

Wasn't Housmans the Anarchist Bookshop?
_________________


Rallying against Rani's Repetitive Rhubarb and Rubbish.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Author Message
Professor



Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Posts: 1948

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

renegade wrote:
Professor wrote:
Vector-Victor wrote:
Professor wrote:

Narratively he's atrocious. Pinter he ain't. He reminds me of Laurence Housman who became Britain's most controversial playwright for a time by putting forbidden characters (Such as Royalty and Jesus) in plays, without actually doing anything interesting with them. RTD is the same. Breaking taboos for the hell of it with no idea what he''s doing or why, for the same type of notoriety.

Nobody knows who Laurence Housman is nowadays Smile


Speak for yourself. Wink I've known about Laurence Housman for years-the left-wing bookshop Housmans in London is named after him.

http://www.housmans.com/laurence.php

Never read any of Housman's fiction though, although the critic Brian Stableford speaks highly of "Gods and Their Makers", and "All-Fellows and the Cloak of Friendship".


Laughing

Maybe so, but Trevor Nunn isn't about to announce a new production of The Little Plays of St Francis now is he. He has gone from being one of the most controversial and well known playwrights in Britain, to Brother of A.E. If that.

I checked the Housman's website. They don't seem to have anything of his on the site, although they only have a small selection. Next time you are in, do check and see if they actually carry any of his work, as far as I know he is completely out of print. All my copies of his scripts are at least 60 or 70 years old. I'd be delighted if he's still being published somewhere. But if the shop that bears his name doesn't have anything, then you see what I mean about literary fashion.

RTD could be feted as the most wonderful writer on earth right now. In 20 years, no one may know his name.


He did 5 years of Doctor Who, the only way no one will remember his name is if there are no more Doctor Who fans. No one may respect his name, that's a distinct possibility and one I'd welcome. But while there are fans he's guaranteed a place in our memories.

And like JNT he'll look better if someone worse comes along. Hard to imagine just now, but the same could have been said of JNT before 2005. And if it wasn't for the fans no one would remember JNT.


Which is entirely possible, maybe not now, but in a hundred years or so. Housman only died in the 1950's. Hall Caine was the most successful Victorian Novelist, outsold Dickens, Conan Doyle etc by thousands, again, completely unknown to the population at large today.

When you look into it, there is an incredible amount of popular culture that simply disappears out of the national consciousness extremely quickly. Much of it can go within the space of a generation.

Now that's not surprising with anything prior to this century, before the internet. It might be argued that because the internet can archive everything, nothing could ever truly be "lost" again. However, I think the danger is that there is too much, with new stuff being generated all the time.

Who fandom is very strong, but it still requires young blood. If Who isn't on tv at any point, that influx will decline. Even now, NuWho is in the national consciousness, but nowhere near as much as during Tom's days or during Dalekmania, yet ask any member of the general population who produced Tom (or any of them), and you'll get a blank stare. Fandom will remember, but fandom will start to die the instant the show goes off air. It'll take a long time maybe, and never completely die, but the world is full of not quite forgotten things. Housman's legacy is not his novels or plays or poetry, it's a specialist bookshop (again, unknown to many). It's easy to underestimate how quickly things can be forgotten.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    The Leisure Hive Forum Index -> The Current Era All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

© 2007-2008 Informe.com. Get Free Forum Hosting
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
 :: 
BBTech Template by © 2003-04 MDesign